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  1. #31
    Member Tcoat's Avatar
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    Maybe stretching the speculation acceptance a bit but unless there is another name for the model tucked away someplace then my guess is for a Scion badging. The whole letter thing screams Scion whereas if a Toyota there would be an actual model name. Even the 86 does not fit the Scion name pattern even though not actually 'words'.

  2. #32
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    Come on just think about this for a second. If THIS car, the small, fun, lightweight, affordable car geared towards young people doesn't get a Scion badge, what car will?? This thing will be the face of Scion when it comes out.

  3. #33
    Junior Member strat61caster's Avatar
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    Based on current hypothetical specs, I'll be keeping my 86, not enough here to entice me to have to start investing in another chassis.

  4. #34
    Member Vracer111's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strat61caster View Post
    Based on current hypothetical specs, I'll be keeping my 86, not enough here to entice me to have to start investing in another chassis.
    But if this comes here with the 2ZR-FAE 1.8L corolla motor....wooo doggy, the FR-S is weak sauce now! ~17.4lb/lbf verses ~18.4lb/lbf in the FR-S...

  5. #35
    Junior Member strat61caster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vracer111 View Post
    But if this comes here with the 2ZR-FAE 1.8L corolla motor....wooo doggy, the FR-S is weak sauce now! ~17.4lb/lbf verses ~18.4lb/lbf in the FR-S...
    Plausible if we assume leak is false (which points to 1.5L DI, also means that <2,200lb weight is suspect as well, which it should be), keeps costs down, proven engine for peace of mind during hard running, and yes, good torque/weight.

    However, the easily accessible power potential in the FA20 is staggering imo, ~50% gains that are emissions legal that even a subpar DIY mechanic can install over a weekend from 4 competing companies. You're almost into Mustang GT power/weight if you assume that works out to ~300 crank hp, good enough to out muscle a base Cayman while carrying a few hundred less pounds. With many people into the tens of thousands of miles of FI confidence is rather high that these kits can go the distance.

    I'm also a big fan of the boxer for c.g. reasons, with the SFR having an I4 and a higher roofline than the 86 it will add up. It was certainly present in the Toyobaru/Miata comparisons as the 86 was praised for it's flat handling. In two+ years who knows, I'll probably be looking at my FR-S in the garage and weighing the option of a $6k supercharger or trading it in with $6k cash for an S-FR, time will tell if Toyota offers up something great for North American enthusiasts.

    So far this car (S-FR) with a Japanese I4 (already owned one, not interested in owning another) and MacPherson struts does not excite me enough to get my wallet out. Change one or both of those variables however...
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  6. #36
    Member Vracer111's Avatar
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    Yeah, we'll have to wait until the end of the month to get the S-FR specs from Toyota. But if it is anything Boxer motor related I have ZERO interest in the S-FR... I bought the FR-S in spite of the fact I can't stand Subaru boxer motors...it's a great car despite having a power unit that is both part of what makes it special and is yet its Achille's heel at the same time. The S-FR needs an I4 motor... not a boxer motor. I highly doubt I have to worry about a boxer motor being in the S-FR, it's most undoubtedly an I4 due to the design shown.

  7. #37
    Junior Member strat61caster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vracer111 View Post
    and is yet its Achille's heel at the same time.
    I'm bored, what are your grievances against the FA20? Feel free to get subjective, but I'd prefer objective reasons.

  8. #38
    Member Vracer111's Avatar
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    I'll first sum it up easily in one sentence: Heat management related issues due to the boxer configuration in an enclosed engine bay.

    If I want to currently, every day I can make the check engine light come on just by getting on the throttle hard...P0351. The car just can't take hot climates long term. They didn't do proper long term hot climate testing for this vehicle, because if you live in a hot climate or track the car you will have heat related issues pop up regularly after a while...at least with an early model. I have one of the first batch off the line (Bought in May 2012) , already had an ECU replaced within warranty that failed and sent the car into limp mode. I've never had any such issue's with my Honda's or Toyota's with I4's, and I ran them to redline everyday for 100,000+ miles.

    Have had heating issues will ALL Subaru motors encountered however. Both the '90 Legacy LS (EJ22) and '05 Impreza RS (EJ25) eventually overheated and warped the blocks, coolant level was always a mystery and always decreasing (FA20 coolant level decreases very slowly at least) - where it goes is a mystery (though for the FR-S I suspect it's the engine bay heat evaporating the recovery bottle contents to bring it down...), and best time to take oil levels is after the car has sat overnight for any kind of consistency. And simple maintenance is not so simple... more involved than I4, have to schedule your day around doing spark plug/coil pack replacement. And when it comes to any head work...well you have to do twice as much work and spec'ing and have the complete engine out of the car compared to an I4 where you can just pull it right off, work on it, then put it back on with the engine in the car.

    Currently my FA20 is seeping oil out the front driver's head gasket/sensor area... so I can either pull out the motor to fix the gasket or just let it slowly seep and grime up the motor and undertray...uugggg.

    I'll never get another Subaru H4 powered vehicle as long as I live...and I mean it this time! LOL

    I4 is what most everyone who buys a car for life and works on their cars wants in a small inexpensive sport car. If you want to add in more frustration and headache to the mix...then yeah, I guess a Subaru boxer motor is okay...but why do that to yourself?
    Last edited by Vracer111; 10-13-2015 at 04:19 PM.
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  9. #39
    Junior Member strat61caster's Avatar
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    Two responses:

    A once every 60k mile service is trivial, yes a pain but how many times over the realistic life of the car will you have to schedule that entire day of maintenance? If you put 300,000 miles on the car you have spent 5 painful days replacing spark plugs. Whoopie.

    I also am having coil pack issues as well, ~$100 and less than an hour to replace. I can't defend this, only that right now it hasn't stopped me from tracking or running hard, I've got codes for 2x more coil packs on top of the 1 I've already replaced but it doesn't manifest at autocross and it's only popped the code once on the street so I can put the expense off for a few months. Worst part about it is that I now ignore the CEL on track, the power cut is minor and the loss of cruise control is livable.

    Saw a post claiming it might be harness related, hopefully some coil packs with higher heat resistance are made.

    To the rest, at this point they seem like small issues, oil leaking is problematic but not widespread and fixable if truly a problem, all coolant evaporates Subaru isn't special maybe more than others but not like it's a unique problem, haven't heard of any reason to take the heads off this engine unless a problem occurs which is so far also a rarity, the cooling system is excellent except for the need for the potential oiling issues which are still not well defined at this point, stock powertrain could very well not have ANY cooling issues that I've seen at this point, data is worrying and failures do exist, but again we're not talking Porsche IMS failure levels.

    Most everyone who buys a car doesn't know what kind of engine they have at all. I appreciate the detailed response, it's one of the better posts about the FA20 I've seen.

    "why do that to yourself?"
    Pros outweigh the cons to me, no reason to repeat them, not interested in driving something uninteresting. No engine is truly trouble free, especially the fun ones, definitely a personal decision, not saying your wrong and peace of mind is certainly worth many sacrifices.


    (I miss the cheers emoticon)
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  10. #40
    Member Vracer111's Avatar
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    I know changing the spark plugs is not a huge deal, but compared to an I4 where on the spur of a moment (with a cold car) you can change out the spark plugs and be ready to go in about 10 minutes... that's a +1 for I4.

    Yeah I wish the coil pack issue was more understood...I've bought a new coil pack but haven't replaced it yet, been able to drive in a sane manner and keep the check engine light and P0351 code from popping up...and if it does I can clear it right away once its P0351 and not something else.

    Yeah, the issues with boxer motors are not major catastrophic ones for the most part, but they have been the most annoying motors I've ever dealt with...luckily I never had to deal with the motor in the V6 4th gen Camaro I had for a short while...otherwise it would probably be the most annoying... LOL

    The small seeping oil is no big deal overall...problem is properly fixing it involves taking the motor out, head needs to come off to properly seal it. I don't want to do that if I don't have to, so I'll just keep an eye on it. I won't take it into a dealer because (another reason don't like a boxer motor in a Toyota) Subaru won't take non-Subaru vehicles in...I'm not going to a Toyota dealership for them to work on a Subaru motor... same reason I get all the oil filters and coolant from Subaru dealerships...

    Coolant again is a minor issue and the FA20 seem pretty good in this regard - I really think it's just heat of the engine bay making the fluid evaporate. My basic routine every day is when I get home from work and park in the garage my hood goes up and stays up until the next morning. Get ready to leave and check coolant level then close the hood. Leaving the hood open also helps to dissipate the heat generated from the drive home. Man when I lift the hood you can just smell a hot almost burn oil smell from the seepage... I knew it's wasn't the back cover plate since it's always been completely dry every time I've checked it. Finally figured out where it was coming from when I was installing the CAE Ultra shifter recently. Seepage is on the block, head, front timing cover, and a little on the header...hence the strong smell.

    The one thing that really bugs me about the boxer motor is the exhaust is directly underneath the motor...so you are putting heat into the block and heads from the exhaust system. The closed in engine bay in the FR-S just further compounds the problem.


    I have to honestly say the FA20 has some nice power delivery characteristics, and I do like how it motivates the FR-S, especially going past 5k rpm. I just don't like the mechanicals and uncertainty of the motor. I would prefer something like a B-series Honda motor. The Honda B18A1 has been the best/most special motor I've experienced; with and 8lb racing flywheel, custom intake, custom exhaust in a in a 2300lb car....instant revs and an ever increasing power surge to redline with no dropout of acceleration on the way to it... and it was in a daily driver that saw near 200k miles. That's what I'd like for the S-FR, and I'm sure the 1.8L Corolla motor could provide a similar experience.



    Last edited by Vracer111; 10-13-2015 at 09:03 PM.
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    My FR-S: 13' Asphalt, 6MT

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neme303 View Post
    Scion is teasing a third "all new" concept for LA Autoshow in November

    So I think that seals it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
    Nothing says they are. There can be as many pics around as they want that doesn't mean that they are going to show a different car at each show. Maybe the Orange is the latest version and will be the one they show. Rebadged for the appropriate market of course. Or maybe the Orange is just a rendering and there is no actual physical car. Or... Maybe both are not the one they will reveal at the shows. We won't know until it happens.
    It was a C-HR crossover being teased.

    http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/18/s...veal-official/
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  12. #42
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    I quite like the C-HR....
    It reminds me of the RSC concept that Toyota had (and didn't make).
    Exact same concept idea, just made more "modern" (more creases, body lines, angles, etc.)

  13. #43
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    Reminds me a bit of a Isuzu VehiCROSS. Cool car from back in the day.

  14. #44
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    I'd be happy with either badge, just so long as they keep the front styling close to the concept.

  15. #45
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    We may not know if this car is coming but at least we know it won't be coming as a Scion

    Toyota is killing off Scion brand. http://pressroom.scion.com/releases/...ion+toyota.htm

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