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View Full Version : Mazda sourced engine? (Speculation fun)



shark_bait88
10-08-2015, 10:34 AM
Given the specs we're hearing rumors of now, could it share an engine with the MX-5? In Europe/Asia the ND comes with a 1.5L I4 with 129hp, and in the US it got a 2.0L with 155hp. The Euro/Asian specs sound about right, and it would make sense that they'd offer a slightly larger engine to the US market. I wouldn't be surprised if we find out this thing comes with a SkyActiv under the hood. Plus it would follow Toyota's current design philosophy for its sports cars: design the chassis/body and source the engine from someone they're currently partnered with.

FT-1: Toyota design w/ BMW engine
GT86/FR-S: Toyota design w/ Subaru engine
S-FR: Toyota design w/ Mazda engine

I definitely wouldn't mind a Mazda powered 2+2 hardtop with somewhere in the range of 130-160hp that is under 2,200lbs!

That being said, I'd love to see Toyota designing and building their own performance engines again.

Ichitaka05
10-08-2015, 10:42 AM
...or it could be 1.5 liter boxer engine

shark_bait88
10-08-2015, 10:48 AM
...or it could be 1.5 liter boxer engine

A boxer would be cool, as it'd be a real throwback to the Sports 800, but that bump in the hood seems like a purposeful/function design feature. One which wouldn't really be necessary with a flat 4, but would with an inline 4 in such a small car.

Ichitaka05
10-08-2015, 10:53 AM
I do agree with you. I love to see FA15 boxer to be used on this car... but realistically speaking it's better to go Mazda's 1.5 liter i4 w SkyActive.

shark_bait88
10-08-2015, 11:06 AM
I do agree with you. I love to see FA15 boxer to be used on this car... but realistically speaking it's better to go Mazda's 1.5 liter i4 w SkyActive.

Plenty of people hating on the post I made on the FRS/BRZ/GT86 Enthusiast page on Facebook. If it comes with a SkyActiv, they won't be laughing while it pulls away from them as their Toyobaru struggles through the torque dip. lol

Ichitaka05
10-08-2015, 11:28 AM
Plenty of people hating on the post I made on the FRS/BRZ/GT86 Enthusiast page on Facebook. If it comes with a SkyActiv, they won't be laughing while it pulls away from them as their Toyobaru struggles through the torque dip. lol

WHAT?!?!?! IDK why ppl hatin' on idea of coming SkyActiv? If they gonna put i4 using Mazda engine, I pray... again I PRAY that it'll come w SkyActiv!

Not sure on SFR gonna be pulling away from the twins. There are rumor going around saying, there gonna be power upgrade along w new facelift.

shark_bait88
10-08-2015, 11:38 AM
WHAT?!?!?! IDK why ppl hatin' on idea of coming SkyActiv? If they gonna put i4 using Mazda engine, I pray... again I PRAY that it'll come w SkyActiv!

Not sure on SFR gonna be pulling away from the twins. There are rumor going around saying, there gonna be power upgrade along w new facelift.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. haha They were just hating on the car in general.

Facelift would make sense, but a power upgrade, at least one with any significance, seems unlikely to me. The point of the car is that you have to flog it in the high RPMs to keep the car fun, so the torque dip is a staple of the cars' design. They've also pretty much said it will never get factory forced induction. Sure they could go with bigger injectors, a larger displacement motor, or some other tuning, but I just don't see the Toyobaru getting any substantial increases in power. The amount it has now is great for a car of its kind from the factory. People complaining about the power simply don't understand what the car was about.

As for the S-FR pulling away from the Twins, it was more of a joke. However, if the rumors of 2,120lbs curb weight and 130hp are accurate that's a lbs-to-hp ratio of 16.62. That's 2.83lbs-per-hp less than an FR-S, which is not a meager amount.

Granted, if they put a larger engine in it for the US market, like they did with the ND, that difference will shrink a little. I expect the S-FR to have a power-to-weight ratio that's very similar to the ND.

Ichitaka05
10-08-2015, 11:42 AM
As for the S-FR pulling away from the Twins, it was more of a joke. However, if the rumors of 2,120lbs curb weight and 130hp are accurate that's a lbs-to-hp ratio of 16.62. That's 2.83lbs-per-hp less than an FR-S, which is not a meager amount.

Granted, if they put a larger engine in it for the US market, like they did with the ND, that difference will shrink a little. I expect the S-FR to have a power-to-weight ratio that's very similar to the ND.

I hope they keep 1.5 liter in US when they bring it here in US

shark_bait88
10-08-2015, 11:45 AM
I hope they keep 1.5 liter in US when they bring it here in US

My money is on a 1.8-2.0L here, more likely a 2.0L if it is a SkyActiv engine. The US market is tough to sell on small cars, and even tougher to sell on small engines. You know, because #murica.

With our larger roads, bigger highways, and overall more powerful cars a bigger 4cyl kind of makes sense for every day traffic too.

Ichitaka05
10-08-2015, 11:52 AM
My money is on a 1.8-2.0L here, more likely a 2.0L if it is a SkyActiv engine. The US market is tough to sell on small cars, and even tougher to sell on small engines. You know, because #murica.

With our larger roads, bigger highways, and overall more powerful cars a bigger 4cyl kind of makes sense for every day traffic too.

For every day traffic, I think 1.6~1.8 liter w SkyActiv might be better, so they get better MPG than 2.0... but yeah, prob you're right on that Murica part lol

shark_bait88
10-08-2015, 11:56 AM
For every day traffic, I think 1.6~1.8 liter w SkyActiv might be better, so they get better MPG than 2.0... but yeah, prob you're right on that Murica part lol

I agree on the 1.6-1.8L thing, but there are no SkyActiv engines with that displacement. They go 1.3L, 1.5L, 2.0L, and 2.5L. I think we're essentially going to end up with a quirky looking hardtop MX-5, which I'm very alright with.

Ichitaka05
10-08-2015, 12:26 PM
I agree on the 1.6-1.8L thing, but there are no SkyActiv engines with that displacement. They go 1.3L, 1.5L, 2.0L, and 2.5L. I think we're essentially going to end up with a quirky looking hardtop MX-5, which I'm very alright with.

Yeah, that's why my guess is 1.5L

In Car n Driver they "guess" that 1.5 L NA w 130hp... so it's a chance of having 1.5L w SkyActiv.

Guff
10-08-2015, 12:32 PM
I hope it comes with the 2.0 SkyActiv! I've wanted a hardtop Miata forever and Mazda isn't interested in making one. If this ends up being as small and light as a Miata, but with a stiffer structure and more serious suspension, then it'll be perfect.

And how can people on the FRS/BRZ page hate on this thing? The FRS/BRZ was designed to be small, light, and fun, and the S-FR only appears to be smaller, lighter and (potentially) funner! People just like to hate, I guess.

shark_bait88
10-08-2015, 12:33 PM
And how can people on the FRS/BRZ page hate on this thing? The FRS/BRZ was designed to be small, light, and fun, and the S-FR only appears to be smaller, lighter and (potentially) funner! People just like to hate, I guess.

Probably because that page is mainly full of hard parking stance bros. lol

Vracer111
10-08-2015, 08:56 PM
...or it could be 1.5 liter boxer engine

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I'd be happy with a NORMALLY ASPIRATED 1.5L I4 motor from Toyota or Mazda... if it's a Subaru boxer motor or has forced induction in any kind of form I'll be breaking things out of rage....LOL

Vracer111
10-08-2015, 09:02 PM
I hope it comes with the 2.0 SkyActiv! I've wanted a hardtop Miata forever and Mazda isn't interested in making one. If this ends up being as small and light as a Miata, but with a stiffer structure and more serious suspension, then it'll be perfect.

And how can people on the FRS/BRZ page hate on this thing? The FRS/BRZ was designed to be small, light, and fun, and the S-FR only appears to be smaller, lighter and (potentially) funner! People just like to hate, I guess.

Maybe because of the looks and 1.5L motor. I think the S-FR looks cool (WAY better than that TES T Sport concept abomination...yuk!) and I love me a good, small motor in a lightweight car... really looking forward to this S-FR coming out - I've actually put all my plans for the FR-S on hold and waiting to see how the S-FR release pans out.

Everybody complains how underpowered the FR-S is... To me it is more than enough car for daily driving.... I can reach freaking insane cornering speeds in my FR-S with the stock motor, stock suspension that has never seen an alignment since bought, and stock tires... People who say the FR-S is too underpowered need their head examined.

I love the looks of the FR-S, but I've said it before - the FR-S would be dropped in a heartbeat without a second thought if Toyota builds the baby FR-S with a normally aspirated I4 motor, releases it in the US, and it handles/dances similarly enough to an FR-S upon test drive...

PZero
10-08-2015, 09:03 PM
I hope it comes with the 2.0 SkyActiv! I've wanted a hardtop Miata forever and Mazda isn't interested in making one. If this ends up being as small and light as a Miata, but with a stiffer structure and more serious suspension, then it'll be perfect.

And how can people on the FRS/BRZ page hate on this thing? The FRS/BRZ was designed to be small, light, and fun, and the S-FR only appears to be smaller, lighter and (potentially) funner! People just like to hate, I guess.

I'm with Guff I pray it comes with 2.0 Skyactiv. If it does, watch out Miata sales. Everyone who's wanted a Miata coupe will finally have a great option.

People just like to hate on other cars so they can feel better about their own car.

DAEMANO
10-08-2015, 11:02 PM
I'm with Guff I pray it comes with 2.0 Skyactiv. If it does, watch out Miata sales. Everyone who's wanted a Miata coupe will finally have a great option.

People just like to hate on other cars so they can feel better about their own car.

Agreed, this would be the Miata coupe everyone's been clamoring for. I only hope that Toyota chooses a different approach to suspension setup than Mazda. Stiffer springs all around and less body roll PLEASE.

why?
10-09-2015, 08:21 AM
guys no need for a mazda or subaru engine. Toyota has tons of their own small car engines, whether it be 1.3, 1.5, 1.4d4d, etc. And the best part is they all are old shool tech, so if Toyota threw di and some current engine tech at them 130+ hp will be easy. And much much more will be possible with aftermarket. There are a few 1.5l Yaris with 500+ hp roaming around the world, and 250+ are not uncommon.

Ichitaka05
10-09-2015, 09:09 AM
guys no need for a mazda or subaru engine. Toyota has tons of their own small car engines, whether it be 1.3, 1.5, 1.4d4d, etc. And the best part is they all are old shool tech, so if Toyota threw di and some current engine tech at them 130+ hp will be easy. And much much more will be possible with aftermarket. There are a few 1.5l Yaris with 500+ hp roaming around the world, and 250+ are not uncommon.

That's the issue. Toyota have all the engine, but they're all old & highly doubt they won't remodel/new ver their old engine.

Their recent trend is, get new chassis design, get some other brand's engine, make it better & call it good.

shark_bait88
10-09-2015, 09:12 AM
That's the issue. Toyota have all the engine, but they're all old & highly doubt they won't remodel/new ver their old engine.

Their recent trend is, get new chassis design, get some other brand's engine, make it better & call it good.

And it's a formula that's working.

I'd love to see Toyota up their engine game too, but I just don't see it happening on this car. If they aren't willing to do it for the FT-1, it won't happen on a ~$20,000 car.

Lauren
10-09-2015, 09:58 AM
I honestly think this is great. A successor to the S800 fitting neatly in the model range under the GT86 and having that one thing that is so rare these days, an FR layout in a small lightweight compact car.

130bhp will be enough to have fun. I own an AE86 as well as a GT86 and that has around 140bhp (lightly tuned blue printed 4AGE) and weighs in at 970kg, so pretty much bang on to what the S-FR is proposed to have. The AE86 isn't incredibly fast. My GT86 will leave it standing easily enough, but that simply doesn't matter, because the lightweight of the car aids responsiveness and it's just as much fun but you simply don't go as fast. That is fine by me. I love both my cars and have no real wish or need to add more power.

It's about balance to me and that is key. Given Toyota's recent preference for borrowing other manufacturer's engines it makes sense to take that option and use the MX5 engine.

The burning question to me, is will it have an LSD? 130bhp and 980kg will mean that you will have enough to use it for sure. :)

Traum
10-09-2015, 10:00 AM
guys no need for a mazda or subaru engine. Toyota has tons of their own small car engines, whether it be 1.3, 1.5, 1.4d4d, etc. And the best part is they all are old shool tech, so if Toyota threw di and some current engine tech at them 130+ hp will be easy. And much much more will be possible with aftermarket. There are a few 1.5l Yaris with 500+ hp roaming around the world, and 250+ are not uncommon.
The golden rules of the engine game nowadays are emissions and fuel efficiency, and none of Toyota's engines are capable of meeting these 2 goals unless they get paired up with their hybrid tech. You can't just tart up those old engines or add band aid fixes either because the design philosophy and emphasis are completely different. Think air flow, bore vs stroke, cam design, block material, etc.

From a business point of view, I really see very little reason why Toyota wouldn't want to just adopt Mazda's 1.5L or 2.0L SkyActiv engine into this car.

shark_bait88
10-09-2015, 10:16 AM
The burning question to me, is will it have an LSD? 130bhp and 980kg will mean that you will have enough to use it for sure. :)

Agreed. I think Toyota knows well enough that it needs to come with an LSD, and considering it would be easy to put the Torsen in from the FR-S/GT86 there's no reason they shouldn't. That's one of my biggest gripes about the ND MX-5, in order to get the LSD you have to get the Club. Neither the base model, Sport, nor top of the line, Grand Touring, come with one. It's stupid.

I definitely agree that 130bhp is enough, and being in the UK I'm sure that's what you'll get. In the US our market has a rather stone-age perception of the automotive industry, and therefore we're probably going to end up getting a larger engine, most likely a 2.0L; if my theory holds true.

Traum
10-09-2015, 10:35 AM
I definitely agree that 130bhp is enough, and being in the UK I'm sure that's what you'll get. In the US our market has a rather stone-age perception of the automotive industry, and therefore we're probably going to end up getting a larger engine, most likely a 2.0L; if my theory holds true.
Buddy,

Stone age or not, are you actually telling me that you'd prefer a lower powered 1.5L over a higher powered 2.0L? If both engines are the Mazda-sourced high performance SkyActiv units (ie. those found in the ND Miata, as opposed to the engines in the Mazda2 and 3), they are both going to be very good. The 2.0L wouldn't have the same high redline as the 1.5L, but it has significantly more grunt across the board, and is still fairly rev happy at the high end.

shark_bait88
10-09-2015, 10:40 AM
Buddy,

Stone age or not, are you actually telling me that you'd prefer a lower powered 1.5L over a higher powered 2.0L? If both engines are the Mazda-sourced high performance SkyActiv units (ie. those found in the ND Miata, as opposed to the engines in the Mazda2 and 3), they are both going to be very good. The 2.0L wouldn't have the same high redline as the 1.5L, but it has significantly more grunt across the board, and is still fairly rev happy at the high end.

You misunderstood what I wrote. I never said I would prefer the 1.5L. I just said it was enough power for a car that size, and gave the reasoning why the US will more likely get the larger engine. Just because something is enough, doesn't mean I wouldn't want more!

carboy
10-09-2015, 01:36 PM
I'm okay with either a Toyota or Mazda 1.5 I4. I don't really care for a boxer engine though.

Maybe down the road factory supercharger kit :cool:

shark_bait88
10-09-2015, 01:37 PM
I'm okay with either a Toyota or Mazda 1.5 I4. I don't really care for a boxer engine though.

Maybe down the road factory supercharger kit :cool:

Seeing TRD supercharger kits offered for the FR-S and S-FR would be cool. I think a fair few more people would go FI, because they wouldn't have to fear about voiding warranty with a factory option.

Ichitaka05
10-09-2015, 02:11 PM
Well, looks like this Kuruma GT mag in Japan claim it'll have 2NR-FKE engine from Toyota.

& good news is, it doesn't need premium gas, it states it needs reg gas.

http://www.sfrforums.com/forums/showthread.php?10-S-FR-tech-specs-detailed-(130-HP-2160-lbs)

carboy
10-09-2015, 03:48 PM
Well, looks like this Kuruma GT mag in Japan claim it'll have 2NR-FKE engine from Toyota.

& good news is, it doesn't need premium gas, it states it needs reg gas.

http://www.sfrforums.com/forums/showthread.php?10-S-FR-tech-specs-detailed-(130-HP-2160-lbs)

Nice details. Sugoi!

Nevermore
10-13-2015, 05:48 PM
How did I miss this thread on a forum this small? It's only been a few days, but I already feel like I'm necroing this thread with the way things move in these early stages. I don't care though because Mazda fanboi. A Toyota manager says the leaked specs are a lie, but is he lying or is he even a manager? Either way, the actual engine might still be up in the air. I brought it up in another thread, but I'm thinking if the old I4 in my 626 had 130hp from 15 years ago (and was somewhat peppy in a sedan) then 1.5-2.0 skyactiv should be more than enough for this little car. I'm excited no matter what engine they put in it, but a Mazda engine would just make me all the happier. But others have made strong cases why Toyota doesn't need Mazda, so we'll see.