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PZero
10-08-2015, 08:58 AM
So are we going to see this come out as a Scion or Toyota badged S-FR?

It's got a Toyota name for now but so did the FR-S when it was still in FT-86 concept form.

The Scion brand definitely built up some sports car reputation finally with the FR-S but I still think the Toyota badge would make this a stronger seller.

Ichitaka05
10-08-2015, 09:02 AM
I highly doubt, it'll be coming to US as a Toyota. It'll prob be Scion from the price range.

Guff
10-08-2015, 09:06 AM
If it even gets to the US, it'll be a Scion for sure. Although, with the tC and FRS already there, Scion's coupe lineup might be getting a little crowded...

Socalrider
10-08-2015, 09:10 AM
Well it's supposed to be a modern Toyota Sports 800 right? Why not keep it Toyota then!


64

Ichitaka05
10-08-2015, 09:19 AM
If it even gets to the US, it'll be a Scion for sure. Although, with the tC and FRS already there, Scion's coupe lineup might be getting a little crowded...

Well, that's not stopping Toyota from making more fat FWD cars in their line lol


Well it's supposed to be a modern Toyota Sports 800 right? Why not keep it Toyota then!
64

I'm hoping it's fastback

Yoto70
10-08-2015, 10:08 AM
Definitely see the inspiration side by side with the Toyota Sports 800. The only thing is the retro and modern clash a bit on the concept. I'm hoping there are lots of revisions to the made before it gets anywhere close to production.

shark_bait88
10-08-2015, 10:18 AM
The way this thing is designed now it already looks very close to being a production model.

If it comes to the US it'll definitely be branded as a Scion. It honestly wouldn't make sense for it to be a Toyota here, given both brands' current images and marketing.

PZero
10-08-2015, 09:05 PM
The way this thing is designed now it already looks very close to being a production model.

If it comes to the US it'll definitely be branded as a Scion. It honestly wouldn't make sense for it to be a Toyota here, given both brands' current images and marketing.

What about the supposed new Supra that's coming then? That wouldn't fit into Toyota's image and marketing either. But no way they badge it a Scion! :D

Vracer111
10-08-2015, 09:23 PM
Maybe a Lexus S-FR? LOL

I don't care what it comes over as, as long as it comes (and doesn't have a boxer motor!)...

Callie
10-08-2015, 09:36 PM
Maybe a Lexus S-FR? LOL

I don't care what it comes over as, as long as it comes (and doesn't have a boxer motor!)...

Can't wait to get rid of your car huh.

Don't care what the badge is.. Toyota, Scion, or even Mazda are all ok with me as long as it looks and performs well. There hasn't been a car like this to hit the market in a long time!

DAEMANO
10-08-2015, 11:09 PM
This has to be a Scion. It doesn't fit Toyota at all.

As far as choosing one over the other, many ppl will have completed their 2012-2014 86/FR-S/BRZ loans by 2018-2019 so the choice might not be either/or but perhaps both.

Vracer111
10-08-2015, 11:29 PM
This has to be a Scion. It doesn't fit Toyota at all.

As far as choosing one over the other, many ppl will have completed their 2012-2014 86/FR-S/BRZ loans by 2018-2019 so the choice might not be either/or but perhaps both.

I'd happily get rid of the FR-S when the S-FR comes out - sell the FR-S and use it to mostly cover the price of the S-FR. Did I mention I have a strong dislike for boxer motors?...LOL

shark_bait88
10-09-2015, 04:16 AM
What about the supposed new Supra that's coming then? That wouldn't fit into Toyota's image and marketing either. But no way they badge it a Scion! :D

Honestly, I'm not so sure about that at this point. People will flip their shit if it's a Scion, but Toyota US has made it pretty clear that Scion is where they're branding their new sports cars. We'll see for sure with the announcement of the S-FR, but I'd be shocked if it isn't a Scion in the US.

why?
10-09-2015, 08:16 AM
The Supra will be a Toyota, the FRS really streches how much a Scion should cost, and frankly Toyota should have a more luxury version called a Celica.

This will be a Scion. As long as it is under $20k and really 2200lbs or less, it should be great.

cyde01
10-09-2015, 11:27 AM
the FRS never should have been a scion in the first place. with the S-FR coming in at a lower price point, badge the S-FR a scion and badge the supra and 86 a toyota. better yet, just get rid of scion and badge them all toyotas.

carboy
10-09-2015, 01:25 PM
I believe this will be a scion, it just falls inline with their car lineup. I don't mind the mono spec either as the pricing is probably better for profits. Either way great news.

Asone
10-09-2015, 04:17 PM
Scion iS
Scion iFR
:)

Neme303
10-09-2015, 08:39 PM
Scion is teasing a third "all new" concept for LA Autoshow in November

So I think that seals it.

Pufferfish
10-09-2015, 08:46 PM
Scion is teasing a third "all new" concept for LA Autoshow in November

So I think that seals it.

I don't think the Scion concept showing at LA show is the S-FR. The roof looks different, the badge placement is different.


http://www.scion.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/scion-concept-car-2015.jpg

http://www.sfrforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=49&d=1444293916

Neme303
10-09-2015, 09:00 PM
I don't think the Scion concept showing at LA show is the S-FR. The roof looks different, the badge placement is different.


http://www.scion.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/scion-concept-car-2015.jpg

http://www.sfrforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=49&d=1444293916

I brought this up on FT86Forum. Scion did the same thing with the iM. as long as the shape is similar there's a big chance the two are the same. In fact now that I think about it, they did the same thing with the FR-S

Tcoat
10-09-2015, 09:07 PM
The yellow is possibly an earlier version of the concept and the orange later. Or the Scion could be slightly different for the North American market. This isn't as likely though since the 86 and FRS don't show similar differences between the markets.

Pufferfish
10-09-2015, 09:08 PM
I brought this up on FT86Forum. Scion did the same thing with the iM. as long as the shape is similar there's a big chance the two are the same. In fact now that I think about it, they did the same thing with the FR-S

I don't remember them doing the same with the FR-S.

And also consider that Toyota has now shown the full S-FR concept in their announcement that it'll debut at the Tokyo Show. Why bother showing just a teaser for the LA show which will come after the Tokyo Show. If they were gonna do a teaser at all they would have done it for the show that comes first - Tokyo.

Don't get me wrong, I hope you're right that it shows up at LA which means we'll likely get it in the N.A. market.

Tcoat
10-09-2015, 09:14 PM
I don't remember them doing the same with the FR-S.

And also consider that Toyota has now shown the full S-FR concept in their announcement that it'll debut at the Tokyo Show. Why bother showing just a teaser for the LA show which will come after the Tokyo Show. If they were gonna do a teaser at all they would have done it for the show that comes first - Tokyo.

Don't get me wrong, I hope you're right that it shows up at LA which means we'll likely get it in the N.A. market.
Official release that there will be a new Scion. Don't know what else it could be. New Scion means N A release.
http://www.sfrforums.com/forums/showthread.php?8-Will-the-S-FR-be-Japan-only&p=169&viewfull=1#post169

Pufferfish
10-09-2015, 09:20 PM
Official release that there will be a new Scion. Don't know what else it could be. New Scion means N A release.
http://www.sfrforums.com/forums/showthread.php?8-Will-the-S-FR-be-Japan-only&p=169&viewfull=1#post169

Could be another model altogether? Maybe a crossover as the auto blogs are speculating. Just don't see Toyota doing two different styled concepts of the same car for two shows within a month of each other.

Tcoat
10-09-2015, 09:25 PM
Could be another model altogether? Maybe a crossover as the auto blogs are speculating. Just don't see Toyota doing two different styled concepts of the same car for two shows within a month of each other.

Nothing says they are. There can be as many pics around as they want that doesn't mean that they are going to show a different car at each show. Maybe the Orange is the latest version and will be the one they show. Rebadged for the appropriate market of course. Or maybe the Orange is just a rendering and there is no actual physical car. Or... Maybe both are not the one they will reveal at the shows. We won't know until it happens.

Neme303
10-09-2015, 09:26 PM
Could be another model altogether? Maybe a crossover as the auto blogs are speculating. Just don't see Toyota doing two different styled concepts of the same car for two shows within a month of each other.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Scion-FR-S-concept-and-Toyota-FT-86-II-concept.jpg

They've done it before.

gymratter
10-11-2015, 07:57 AM
Maybe a Lexus S-FR? LOL

I don't care what it comes over as, as long as it comes (and doesn't have a boxer motor!)...

X2, doesn't matter to me either as long as we get over here.

gymratter
10-11-2015, 07:58 AM
I don't think the Scion concept showing at LA show is the S-FR. The roof looks different, the badge placement is different.


http://www.scion.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/scion-concept-car-2015.jpg

http://www.sfrforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=49&d=1444293916

X2

Earlier reports said the LA Scion car could be a rebadge Toyota C-HR.

Comparison time

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zOq_cyNmnrw/VfnB43VFU0I/AAAAAAAAJ6w/M-13n7i2KUI/s1600/Toyota-C-HR-3.JPG

Panzer
10-11-2015, 04:36 PM
X2

Earlier reports said the LA Scion car could be a rebadge Toyota C-HR.

Comparison time

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zOq_cyNmnrw/VfnB43VFU0I/AAAAAAAAJ6w/M-13n7i2KUI/s1600/Toyota-C-HR-3.JPG

The teaser image looks very close to the back of the C-HR. There's a little extra fold/lip on the trunk like the C-HR, the badge placement is the same as the C-HR, and I think I might be seeing the same cutout lines on the roof. Regardless, they can still bring the SFR to the LA show even if they're only teased another car.

Nevermore
10-12-2015, 09:17 AM
Well, I just came in here to make a post about it not being a Scion because I figured they might not want to bloat the lineup with too many cars, but I did some research mid-typing to make sure what I was saying was correct. They got rid of the xD (I did not know this) and are dropping the xB this year (I did know this). They also just added the iA and the iM. That gives them only the FR-S, the tC, the iA and the iM. Four cars does seem a bit light, so they definitely have a slot for it. Plus it should fit pretty well for a varied model offering (I still think they need a quirky, little truck though, but that's a different discussion.)

Tcoat
10-13-2015, 06:59 AM
Maybe stretching the speculation acceptance a bit but unless there is another name for the model tucked away someplace then my guess is for a Scion badging. The whole letter thing screams Scion whereas if a Toyota there would be an actual model name. Even the 86 does not fit the Scion name pattern even though not actually 'words'.

Mac
10-13-2015, 08:11 AM
Come on just think about this for a second. If THIS car, the small, fun, lightweight, affordable car geared towards young people doesn't get a Scion badge, what car will?? This thing will be the face of Scion when it comes out.

strat61caster
10-13-2015, 10:15 AM
Based on current hypothetical specs, I'll be keeping my 86, not enough here to entice me to have to start investing in another chassis.

Vracer111
10-13-2015, 11:51 AM
Based on current hypothetical specs, I'll be keeping my 86, not enough here to entice me to have to start investing in another chassis.

But if this comes here with the 2ZR-FAE 1.8L corolla motor....wooo doggy, the FR-S is weak sauce now! ~17.4lb/lbf verses ~18.4lb/lbf in the FR-S...

strat61caster
10-13-2015, 02:06 PM
But if this comes here with the 2ZR-FAE 1.8L corolla motor....wooo doggy, the FR-S is weak sauce now! ~17.4lb/lbf verses ~18.4lb/lbf in the FR-S...

Plausible if we assume leak is false (which points to 1.5L DI, also means that <2,200lb weight is suspect as well, which it should be), keeps costs down, proven engine for peace of mind during hard running, and yes, good torque/weight.

However, the easily accessible power potential in the FA20 is staggering imo, ~50% gains that are emissions legal that even a subpar DIY mechanic can install over a weekend from 4 competing companies. You're almost into Mustang GT power/weight if you assume that works out to ~300 crank hp, good enough to out muscle a base Cayman while carrying a few hundred less pounds. With many people into the tens of thousands of miles of FI confidence is rather high that these kits can go the distance.

I'm also a big fan of the boxer for c.g. reasons, with the SFR having an I4 and a higher roofline than the 86 it will add up. It was certainly present in the Toyobaru/Miata comparisons as the 86 was praised for it's flat handling. In two+ years who knows, I'll probably be looking at my FR-S in the garage and weighing the option of a $6k supercharger or trading it in with $6k cash for an S-FR, time will tell if Toyota offers up something great for North American enthusiasts.

So far this car (S-FR) with a Japanese I4 (already owned one, not interested in owning another) and MacPherson struts does not excite me enough to get my wallet out. Change one or both of those variables however...

Vracer111
10-13-2015, 02:49 PM
Yeah, we'll have to wait until the end of the month to get the S-FR specs from Toyota. But if it is anything Boxer motor related I have ZERO interest in the S-FR... I bought the FR-S in spite of the fact I can't stand Subaru boxer motors...it's a great car despite having a power unit that is both part of what makes it special and is yet its Achille's heel at the same time. The S-FR needs an I4 motor... not a boxer motor. I highly doubt I have to worry about a boxer motor being in the S-FR, it's most undoubtedly an I4 due to the design shown.

strat61caster
10-13-2015, 03:10 PM
and is yet its Achille's heel at the same time.

I'm bored, what are your grievances against the FA20? Feel free to get subjective, but I'd prefer objective reasons.

Vracer111
10-13-2015, 03:58 PM
I'll first sum it up easily in one sentence: Heat management related issues due to the boxer configuration in an enclosed engine bay.

If I want to currently, every day I can make the check engine light come on just by getting on the throttle hard...P0351. The car just can't take hot climates long term. They didn't do proper long term hot climate testing for this vehicle, because if you live in a hot climate or track the car you will have heat related issues pop up regularly after a while...at least with an early model. I have one of the first batch off the line (Bought in May 2012) , already had an ECU replaced within warranty that failed and sent the car into limp mode. I've never had any such issue's with my Honda's or Toyota's with I4's, and I ran them to redline everyday for 100,000+ miles.

Have had heating issues will ALL Subaru motors encountered however. Both the '90 Legacy LS (EJ22) and '05 Impreza RS (EJ25) eventually overheated and warped the blocks, coolant level was always a mystery and always decreasing (FA20 coolant level decreases very slowly at least) - where it goes is a mystery (though for the FR-S I suspect it's the engine bay heat evaporating the recovery bottle contents to bring it down...), and best time to take oil levels is after the car has sat overnight for any kind of consistency. And simple maintenance is not so simple... more involved than I4, have to schedule your day around doing spark plug/coil pack replacement. And when it comes to any head work...well you have to do twice as much work and spec'ing and have the complete engine out of the car compared to an I4 where you can just pull it right off, work on it, then put it back on with the engine in the car.

Currently my FA20 is seeping oil out the front driver's head gasket/sensor area... so I can either pull out the motor to fix the gasket or just let it slowly seep and grime up the motor and undertray...uugggg.

I'll never get another Subaru H4 powered vehicle as long as I live...and I mean it this time! LOL

I4 is what most everyone who buys a car for life and works on their cars wants in a small inexpensive sport car. If you want to add in more frustration and headache to the mix...then yeah, I guess a Subaru boxer motor is okay...but why do that to yourself?

strat61caster
10-13-2015, 07:37 PM
Two responses:

A once every 60k mile service is trivial, yes a pain but how many times over the realistic life of the car will you have to schedule that entire day of maintenance? If you put 300,000 miles on the car you have spent 5 painful days replacing spark plugs. Whoopie.

I also am having coil pack issues as well, ~$100 and less than an hour to replace. I can't defend this, only that right now it hasn't stopped me from tracking or running hard, I've got codes for 2x more coil packs on top of the 1 I've already replaced but it doesn't manifest at autocross and it's only popped the code once on the street so I can put the expense off for a few months. Worst part about it is that I now ignore the CEL on track, the power cut is minor and the loss of cruise control is livable. :(

Saw a post claiming it might be harness related, hopefully some coil packs with higher heat resistance are made.

To the rest, at this point they seem like small issues, oil leaking is problematic but not widespread and fixable if truly a problem, all coolant evaporates Subaru isn't special maybe more than others but not like it's a unique problem, haven't heard of any reason to take the heads off this engine unless a problem occurs which is so far also a rarity, the cooling system is excellent except for the need for the potential oiling issues which are still not well defined at this point, stock powertrain could very well not have ANY cooling issues that I've seen at this point, data is worrying and failures do exist, but again we're not talking Porsche IMS failure levels.

Most everyone who buys a car doesn't know what kind of engine they have at all. I appreciate the detailed response, it's one of the better posts about the FA20 I've seen.

"why do that to yourself?"
Pros outweigh the cons to me, no reason to repeat them, not interested in driving something uninteresting. No engine is truly trouble free, especially the fun ones, definitely a personal decision, not saying your wrong and peace of mind is certainly worth many sacrifices.

:cool:
(I miss the cheers emoticon)

Vracer111
10-13-2015, 08:49 PM
I know changing the spark plugs is not a huge deal, but compared to an I4 where on the spur of a moment (with a cold car) you can change out the spark plugs and be ready to go in about 10 minutes... that's a +1 for I4.

Yeah I wish the coil pack issue was more understood...I've bought a new coil pack but haven't replaced it yet, been able to drive in a sane manner and keep the check engine light and P0351 code from popping up...and if it does I can clear it right away once its P0351 and not something else.

Yeah, the issues with boxer motors are not major catastrophic ones for the most part, but they have been the most annoying motors I've ever dealt with...luckily I never had to deal with the motor in the V6 4th gen Camaro I had for a short while...otherwise it would probably be the most annoying... LOL

The small seeping oil is no big deal overall...problem is properly fixing it involves taking the motor out, head needs to come off to properly seal it. I don't want to do that if I don't have to, so I'll just keep an eye on it. I won't take it into a dealer because (another reason don't like a boxer motor in a Toyota) Subaru won't take non-Subaru vehicles in...I'm not going to a Toyota dealership for them to work on a Subaru motor... same reason I get all the oil filters and coolant from Subaru dealerships...

Coolant again is a minor issue and the FA20 seem pretty good in this regard - I really think it's just heat of the engine bay making the fluid evaporate. My basic routine every day is when I get home from work and park in the garage my hood goes up and stays up until the next morning. Get ready to leave and check coolant level then close the hood. Leaving the hood open also helps to dissipate the heat generated from the drive home. Man when I lift the hood you can just smell a hot almost burn oil smell from the seepage... I knew it's wasn't the back cover plate since it's always been completely dry every time I've checked it. Finally figured out where it was coming from when I was installing the CAE Ultra shifter recently. Seepage is on the block, head, front timing cover, and a little on the header...hence the strong smell.

The one thing that really bugs me about the boxer motor is the exhaust is directly underneath the motor...so you are putting heat into the block and heads from the exhaust system. The closed in engine bay in the FR-S just further compounds the problem.


I have to honestly say the FA20 has some nice power delivery characteristics, and I do like how it motivates the FR-S, especially going past 5k rpm. I just don't like the mechanicals and uncertainty of the motor. I would prefer something like a B-series Honda motor. The Honda B18A1 has been the best/most special motor I've experienced; with and 8lb racing flywheel, custom intake, custom exhaust in a in a 2300lb car....instant revs and an ever increasing power surge to redline with no dropout of acceleration on the way to it... and it was in a daily driver that saw near 200k miles. That's what I'd like for the S-FR, and I'm sure the 1.8L Corolla motor could provide a similar experience.

https://vracer111.smugmug.com/photos/i-2LSX5mR/0/O/i-2LSX5mR.jpg

https://vracer111.smugmug.com/photos/i-3jKm5JP/0/XL/i-3jKm5JP-XL.jpg

Pufferfish
11-18-2015, 02:55 PM
Scion is teasing a third "all new" concept for LA Autoshow in November

So I think that seals it.


Nothing says they are. There can be as many pics around as they want that doesn't mean that they are going to show a different car at each show. Maybe the Orange is the latest version and will be the one they show. Rebadged for the appropriate market of course. Or maybe the Orange is just a rendering and there is no actual physical car. Or... Maybe both are not the one they will reveal at the shows. We won't know until it happens.

It was a C-HR crossover being teased.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/18/scion-c-hr-concept-reveal-official/

daiheadjai
11-21-2015, 07:46 AM
I quite like the C-HR....
It reminds me of the RSC concept that Toyota had (and didn't make).
Exact same concept idea, just made more "modern" (more creases, body lines, angles, etc.)http://blogs.c.yimg.jp/res/blog-8b-0f/sfptn427/folder/256848/17/6292217/img_0?1388332139

carboy
11-21-2015, 07:06 PM
Reminds me a bit of a Isuzu VehiCROSS. Cool car from back in the day.

motonerd14
11-24-2015, 11:13 AM
I'd be happy with either badge, just so long as they keep the front styling close to the concept. :D

Callie
02-03-2016, 08:55 AM
We may not know if this car is coming but at least we know it won't be coming as a Scion :)

Toyota is killing off Scion brand. http://pressroom.scion.com/releases/scion+transition+toyota.htm

Benji
02-03-2016, 11:27 AM
We may not know if this car is coming but at least we know it won't be coming as a Scion :)

Toyota is killing off Scion brand. http://pressroom.scion.com/releases/scion+transition+toyota.htm

Well I guess that answers that one then....

Ichitaka05
02-03-2016, 12:06 PM
Well I guess that answers that one then....

I was going to comment on that, but you beat me to it lol