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View Full Version : What platform will the S-FR be based on?



gymratter
10-10-2015, 06:02 PM
What do you think a production S-FR will be based on?

1. Shorten reskin 86 chassis with the Corolla's 1.5 liter. This idea has been around for awhile now.
2. A rebadge version of the new MX-5 Miata. Crazy rumor started by Motoring.com
3. Another co development with BMW? The German automaker was rumored toying around with the idea of a Z3 successor.

Vracer111
10-10-2015, 06:16 PM
I think it's pretty much a given it will be an 86 chassis...they already have a great sports car chassis they developed that is pretty flexible in scalability. Might as well get some return on investment with it by using it in a 'baby' 86 and the new Supra... that was probably their plan from the start of development of the GT86 actually.

And we know it will be using a Toyota 1.5L I4 motor now...

gymratter
10-10-2015, 06:22 PM
I don't think the new "Supra" will have anything to do with the 86. The BMW/Toyota press release has said it will be an all new co develop platform.

Ichitaka05
10-10-2015, 10:44 PM
New chassis design by Toyota.

Sarlacc
10-11-2015, 04:17 AM
New chassis design by Toyota.
+1 on that.

Tcoat
10-11-2015, 04:55 PM
New chassis design by Toyota.


+1 on that.

I am with these guys. Although there has been much speculation about the partnership with Mazda it makes zero business sense for Mazda to collaborate in a vehicle that is in direct competition with their current sports car. It worked for Toyota and Subaru since neither had a car of their own but with the Miata already in place why would Mazda want in.

Panzer
10-11-2015, 07:10 PM
Curious -- was the 86's platform designed to be modular / scalable ?

gymratter
10-12-2015, 06:35 PM
Kinda reminds me of the Mini concept.

http://images.car.bauercdn.com/pagefiles/10967/minisuperleggera4.jpg
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--5R_7hvH9--/1464920597239475494.gif

Mac
10-13-2015, 08:21 AM
I am with these guys. Although there has been much speculation about the partnership with Mazda it makes zero business sense for Mazda to collaborate in a vehicle that is in direct competition with their current sports car. It worked for Toyota and Subaru since neither had a car of their own but with the Miata already in place why would Mazda want in.

To prove no one can do it better, even using the same chassis? :)

Ok half joking. But what about rumors that the next Supra (if we ever see it) will use the next gen BMW Z4 platform? I mean companies co-develop stuff all the time, even for directly competing cars. GM and Ford codeveloping 8speed transmission that will make its way into the Camaro/Mustang. Slightly different since we are talking about a full (existing) platform but sports cars are not good business anymore. There's a lot of cost sharing going on to make sure these are financially viable projects.

I agree Mazda has no real reason to do it with an already existing MX-5 but who knows maybe the joint venture started before any of us realized and Toyota has been funding and developing some of it to derive benefit for its own cars. Just a wild thought.

Tcoat
10-13-2015, 08:43 AM
To prove no one can do it better, even using the same chassis? :)

Ok half joking. But what about rumors that the next Supra (if we ever see it) will use the next gen BMW Z4 platform? I mean companies co-develop stuff all the time, even for directly competing cars. GM and Ford codeveloping 8speed transmission that will make its way into the Camaro/Mustang. Slightly different since we are talking about a full (existing) platform but sports cars are not good business anymore. There's a lot of cost sharing going on to make sure these are financially viable projects.

I agree Mazda has no real reason to do it with an already existing MX-5 but who knows maybe the joint venture started before any of us realized and Toyota has been funding and developing some of it to derive benefit for its own cars. Just a wild thought.

Oh I get the sharing part the FRS/BRZ shows there is value in that but in the case of Mazda they already have such a car. It would just be silly for them to hand Toyota the Miata platform and say "here have at it". The Mazda/Toyota shared platform will be the same as the 86 in that it will be a car that neither currently makes. The same thing goes for the BMW partnership.

Nevermore
10-13-2015, 08:47 AM
I just had a thought for the "why would Mazda help Toyota compete with the Miata" crowd. I'll play devil's advocate because I like to do so sometimes. Do we know if any of the companies that share stuff with one another set up royalty deals? It might seem silly of Mazda to help Toyota take on the Miata, but what if Mazda gets like, 10% of the profit, or something? Maybe a fixed check amount for every car sold since they helped.

strat61caster
10-13-2015, 09:35 AM
I just had a thought for the "why would Mazda help Toyota compete with the Miata" crowd. I'll play devil's advocate because I like to do so sometimes. Do we know if any of the companies that share stuff with one another set up royalty deals? It might seem silly of Mazda to help Toyota take on the Miata, but what if Mazda gets like, 10% of the profit, or something? Maybe a fixed check amount for every car sold since they helped.

Toyota is using the Mazda2 as the basis for the Scion iA and Yaris. Here's an article from a few months ago about their recent technical partnership:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150513/OEM01/150519954/toyota-mazda-form-partnership-to-share-technologies-confront-cost

I also do not believe the chassis will be shared with a Miata, the SFR is claiming front struts is a pretty big red flag. However they could still pull from one of Mazda's other chassis or a modified 86 chassis would work as well I believe. The 1.5L engine could be Mazda straight up or even Mazda co-developed based on the hp/L, DI, and the above article that Toyota is interested in Skyactiv.

And now for some mild rumor mill speculation, anybody remember the recent Mazda tease?

http://www2.mazda.com/en/publicity/release/2015/201509/150930a.html

http://www2.mazda.com/en/publicity/release/2015/201509/150930a.jpg


Hmm a coupe, while much sleeker than the SFR not radically disproportionate. Again struts seem like a no-no for Mazda who's had double wishbones on their coupes going back to the 80's, but suspension specs have been mistranslated before, everybody thought the 86 would have a double wishbone rear until the cars were fucking bought. (http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/track-tests/2013-scion-fr-s-suspension-walkaround.html)

Small, very light F-RWD coupe, engine bay barely big enough for a 1.5L, 7" longer wheelbase than a Miata with decent storage space... Every RX-7 has had a wheelbase of 95.3"-95.7" compared to the SFR's 97", the RX-8 has a wheelbase of 106" and half doors.

I think there's an outside chance that the SFR is a shared chassis between Toyota and Mazda who will use it for a new RX. At least, I think that's much more likely than it being based off the Miata without any other caveats (definitely not going to rule out modified Miata chassis). Kinda reminds me of the Toyobaru deal, Subaru develops a good chassis for Toyota, Toyota helps them build the FA20 which has really given their lineup a boost in terms of power/fuel economy. Maybe Mazda is helping out Toyota with SkyActiv and a chassis in exchange for Wankel funding...

Edit: it would also address a few criticisms leveled at the 86, no big power model, styling too similar between the two options, lack of character, etc.

Edit2: If Toyota designs the chassis on their own, maybe a modified 86, significantly reduces the load off Mazda's design costs, Toyota pays for the SkyActiv tech to develop a better 1.5L unit to apply across Toyota's lineup, Mazda gets a fat contract to build a bunch of coupes for Toyota and uses the money to finish the 16X and stuff it into a handful of those coupes it will build for Toyota.

And now re-reading that, why bother involving Mazda at all? Just build the damn coupe on their own.

Nevermore
10-13-2015, 09:46 AM
Toyota is using the Mazda2 as the basis for the Scion iA and Yaris. Here's an article from a few months ago about their recent technical partnership:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150513/OEM01/150519954/toyota-mazda-form-partnership-to-share-technologies-confront-cost

I also do not believe the chassis will be shared with a Miata, the SFR is claiming front struts is a pretty big red flag. However they could still pull from one of Mazda's other chassis or a modified 86 chassis would work as well I believe. The 1.5L engine could be Mazda straight up or even Mazda co-developed based on the hp/L, DI, and the above article that Toyota is interested in Skyactiv.

And now for some mild rumor mill speculation, anybody remember the recent Mazda tease?

http://www2.mazda.com/en/publicity/release/2015/201509/150930a.html

http://www2.mazda.com/en/publicity/release/2015/201509/150930a.jpg


Hmm a coupe, while much sleeker than the SFR not radically disproportionate. Again struts seem like a no-no for Mazda who's had double wishbones on their coupes going back to the 80's, but suspension specs have been mistranslated before, everybody thought the 86 would have a double wishbone rear until the cars were fucking bought. (http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/track-tests/2013-scion-fr-s-suspension-walkaround.html)

Small, very light F-RWD coupe, engine bay barely big enough for a 1.5L, 7" longer wheelbase than a Miata with decent storage space... Every RX-7 has had a wheelbase of 95.3"-95.7" compared to the SFR's 97", the RX-8 has a wheelbase of 106" and half doors.

I think there's an outside chance that the SFR is a shared chassis between Toyota and Mazda who will use it for a new RX. At least, I think that's much more likely than it being based off the Miata without any other caveats (definitely not going to rule out modified Miata chassis). Kinda reminds me of the Toyobaru deal, Subaru develops a good chassis for Toyota, Toyota helps them build the FA20 which has really given their lineup a boost in terms of power/fuel economy. Maybe Mazda is helping out Toyota with SkyActiv and a chassis in exchange for Wankel funding...

Edit: it would also address a few criticisms leveled at the 86, no big power model, styling too similar between the two options, lack of character, etc.

That's very compelling. See, I honestly had no clue about any of it, so this is quite a nice response. I was mostly curious from a financial standpoint, but engineering is engineering, so this makes more sense than any financial answer probably would.

And you just had to include that Mazda! Ugh, I want to know more about that car, and now. Why can't they do a press release for it like the S-FR? I want to see it! And I do hope you're wrong about one thing, though. It might be blasphemy but I don't want a wankel in that new sports car. They just don't appeal to me. ...But that's another discussion for somewhere else.

Tcoat
10-13-2015, 09:49 AM
I think there's an outside chance that the SFR is a shared chassis between Toyota and Mazda who will use it for a new RX. At least, I think that's much more likely than it being based off the Miata without any other caveats (definitely not going to rule out modified Miata chassis). Kinda reminds me of the Toyobaru deal, Subaru develops a good chassis for Toyota, Toyota helps them build the FA20 which has really given their lineup a boost in terms of power/fuel economy. Maybe Mazda is helping out Toyota with SkyActiv and a chassis in exchange for Wankel funding...

.

Now this I can see! That makes far more sense then Mazda giving away (even for a % of sales) their flagship sports car platform. A whole different shared platform would be much more feasible and there could certainly be a business case for it. I had forgotten about that little teaser but like you said it fits perfectly.

strat61caster
10-13-2015, 09:50 AM
That's very compelling. See, I honestly had no clue about any of it, so this is quite a nice response. I was mostly curious from a financial standpoint, but engineering is engineering, so this makes more sense than any financial answer probably would.

And you just had to include that Mazda! Ugh, I want to know more about that car, and now. Why can't they do a press release for it like the S-FR? I want to see it! And I do hope you're wrong about one thing, though. It might be blasphemy but I don't want a wankel in that new sports car. They just don't appeal to me. ...But that's another discussion for somewhere else.

Per the link provided they will release more details at the Tokyo auto show, October 30th-November 8th.

If I'm right then you don't have to have a wankel in that new sports car ;)


Now this I can see! That makes far more sense then Mazda giving away (even for a % of sales) their flagship sports car platform. A whole different shared platform would be much more feasible and there could certainly be a business case for it. I had forgotten about that little teaser but like you said it fits perfectly.

Hehe, far from perfectly imo, but it's certainly feasible. Especially when you remember that Toyota was exploring a rotary for the 86 at some point.

Tcoat
10-13-2015, 09:50 AM
That's very compelling. See, I honestly had no clue about any of it, so this is quite a nice response. I was mostly curious from a financial standpoint, but engineering is engineering, so this makes more sense than any financial answer probably would.

And you just had to include that Mazda! Ugh, I want to know more about that car, and now. Why can't they do a press release for it like the S-FR? I want to see it! And I do hope you're wrong about one thing, though. It might be blasphemy but I don't want a wankel in that new sports car. They just don't appeal to me. ...But that's another discussion for somewhere else.

They did do a press release. It just doesn't say much yet.

strat61caster
10-13-2015, 10:03 AM
Goddamn, I've gotten myself excited now so I'll be sad when my speculation is wrong :(

The most exciting part to me is that now that I'm making up numbers in my head, Mazda gets a slice of every coupe that's built to undercut the Miata, and they have an opportunity to put out a coupe above the Miata and 86 that challenges the 370Z, Genesis, and Pony cars. Given how cheap the SFR claims to be, we could get a 250+ hp wankel coupe at $30k roughly speaking with a sub 2,300 lb curb weight, hell maybe less if Toyota is ok with it competing head to head with the 86. Maybe they'll modify the SFR they're given to use double-wishbones and premium interior to place it firmly above the 86, as I doubt the 16X will be that expensive to warrant a $10k premium, even brand new I think the Renesis was about $4k for a shortblock...

Ok nope, this is too good to be true, it would dominate a 4C and take the fight seriously to a Cayman at half the price, I'm shutting up now.

If it is true, I'll own one, I've said it before the only car that could get me back in a dealership buying new is a wankel from Mazda.

Nevermore
10-13-2015, 11:07 AM
Per the link provided they will release more details at the Tokyo auto show, October 30th-November 8th.

If I'm right then you don't have to have a wankel in that new sports car ;)
I know. That's too long to wait.

And I feel like I missed something. Are you talking engine options? Or am I falling into a trap?

They did do a press release. It just doesn't say much yet.
Needs moar data!

strat61caster
10-13-2015, 11:46 AM
And I feel like I missed something. Are you talking engine options? Or am I falling into a trap?
Baseless speculation:
Toyota/Scion = piston engine, low price point under Miata.
Mazda = Wankel, higher price point, above 86, similar to 370Z/Genesis/Mustang GT
Same chassis.

shark_bait88
10-13-2015, 12:11 PM
Goddamn, I've gotten myself excited now so I'll be sad when my speculation is wrong :(

Given how cheap the SFR claims to be, we could get a 250+ hp wankel coupe at $30k roughly speaking with a sub 2,300 lb curb weight, hell maybe less if Toyota is ok with it competing head to head with the 86.
If it is true, I'll own one, I've said it before the only car that could get me back in a dealership buying new is a wankel from Mazda.

You're letting your imagination run wild. This car will never get a wankel.

If Mazda has any plans to introduce a new wankel powered car, you can be certain that it will only be under the Mazda name and it will probably cost a lot more than $30k. I could see them introducing some wankel powered re-incarnation of the RX-7 to compete with whatever the production version of the FT-1 becomes, but I wouldn't hold my breath for that either.

strat61caster
10-13-2015, 01:32 PM
You're letting your imagination run wild. This car will never get a wankel.

If Mazda has any plans to introduce a new wankel powered car, you can be certain that it will only be under the Mazda name and it will probably cost a lot more than $30k. I could see them introducing some wankel powered re-incarnation of the RX-7 to compete with whatever the production version of the FT-1 becomes, but I wouldn't hold my breath for that either.

I concur entirely with this post and I believe it does not conflict with my wild baseless speculation.

:cool:

whoster
10-13-2015, 03:58 PM
New chassis design by Toyota.


+1 on that.

That's what I've heard elsewhere.


Toyota is using the Mazda2 as the basis for the Scion iA and Yaris. Here's an article from a few months ago about their recent technical partnership:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150513/OEM01/150519954/toyota-mazda-form-partnership-to-share-technologies-confront-cost

I also do not believe the chassis will be shared with a Miata, the SFR is claiming front struts is a pretty big red flag. However they could still pull from one of Mazda's other chassis or a modified 86 chassis would work as well I believe.



The 1.5L engine could be Mazda straight up or even Mazda co-developed based on the hp/L, DI, and the above article that Toyota is interested in Skyactiv.

the 1.5L engine is a pre-existing Toyota engine (2NR-FKE), not a SkyActiv product.





At least, I think that's much more likely than it being based off the Miata without any other caveats (definitely not going to rule out modified Miata chassis).

remember, folks--the Miata platform was developed out of a sharing deal with Fiat-Chrysler so Fiat could resurrect the 124 Spyder.





And now re-reading that, why bother involving Mazda at all? Just build the damn coupe on their own.


Exactly.

:cool:

Nevermore
10-13-2015, 05:23 PM
They probably won't use anything from Mazda, and even if they did they wouldn't use something old because the Skyactiv engines are better, but the I4 in my 626 was pretty peppy for what it was. I might be biased because it was my favorite car I owned up until the FR-S, but I could see a Mazda I4 being a fun engine for this car, especially in a car about 1200-1500 lighter.

strat61caster
10-13-2015, 07:43 PM
the 1.5L engine is a pre-existing Toyota engine (2NR-FKE), not a SkyActiv product.

Source?

whoster
10-14-2015, 07:41 AM
New chassis design by Toyota.


+1 on that.


Source?


jalopnik by way of this forum?

http://jalopnik.com/the-toyota-s-fr-will-be-light-fun-and-cheaper-than-a-m-1736022132

Ichitaka05
10-14-2015, 07:58 AM
jalopnik by way of this forum?

http://jalopnik.com/the-toyota-s-fr-will-be-light-fun-and-cheaper-than-a-m-1736022132

It's not the first time auto blogger quoting the forum. Not only this forum, but all other forums.

Mac
10-15-2015, 07:32 AM
Kinda reminds me of the Mini concept.

http://images.car.bauercdn.com/pagefiles/10967/minisuperleggera4.jpg
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--5R_7hvH9--/1464920597239475494.gif

That's a good thing, the Mini superleggera is a beautiful car!

Ichitaka05
10-15-2015, 08:08 AM
That's a good thing, the Mini superleggera is a beautiful car!

Really? I'll take SFR over Mini. Not a fan of grill part. Looks... off? Not sure the right word for it.

Panzer
10-15-2015, 09:05 AM
Lots of guys here thinking it's a shortened 86 platform. Was thinking though... simply shortening the platform could help drop most of the 600-700 pound difference between the S-FR and the 86?

Tcoat
10-15-2015, 10:09 AM
Kinda reminds me of the Mini concept.

http://images.car.bauercdn.com/pagefiles/10967/minisuperleggera4.jpg
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--5R_7hvH9--/1464920597239475494.gif

Mini looks like an old 70s Volvo!

strat61caster
10-15-2015, 11:27 AM
Lots of guys here thinking it's a shortened 86 platform. Was thinking though... simply shortening the platform could help drop most of the 600-700 pound difference between the S-FR and the 86?

You're right, simply chopping 4" out the middle would not save more than maybe 100 lbs if it's taken out of the right areas. A good chunk may be powertrain savings, (engine/tranny/driveshaft/diff), suspension components can be lighter because they'll see less load but ultimately, they will likely reduce chassis rigidity for weight savings.

Most realistically though, either it's a more efficient chassis in terms of stiffness/weight or the numbers are false.